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Offline aetherwizard  
#1 Posted : 21 May 2017 04:00:05(UTC)
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I am aware of the constant.xml and units.xml sheets. These sheets are fine for people who use the SI system of units.

I have created a different system of units, which is neither SI, MKS, or cgs. It is a system of quantum measurements, and it also is a system where the charge dimension is squared relative to the mass dimension. This results in some units having different structure than in the SI and MKS units. Oddly enough, even though the units in my system are different in structure from the MKS and SI systems, they are identical to the cgs system. The problem with the cgs system is that it does not use a separate dimension of charge, but rather expresses charge in terms of mass, length, and time.

Also, in my system of units, the reciprocal of time is used, i.e. frequency. Frequency is the base temporal dimension instead of time.

I cannot create this system of units by changing the constant.xml and units.xml sheets because the underlying structure is different. I have also created worksheets with unit definitions that work, but the software wants to produce the results in SI units, which is really messy. I need to have the results in the native units I have devised.

Can I get access to the source code that calculates with units and compile it to perform the work I need to have done?

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Offline Jean Giraud  
#2 Posted : 21 May 2017 16:15:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
Can I get access to the source code that calculates with units and compile it to perform the work I need to have done?


Hello David,

Many Smath users are "pro" using the unit system, not me because unit system
does not pass QA [Quality Assurance]. From a wild result [not unit affected],
you can post-add your own system.

Jean

UserUnit.sm (14kb) downloaded 27 time(s).
thanks 1 user thanked Jean Giraud for this useful post.
on 21/05/2017(UTC)
Offline aetherwizard  
#3 Posted : 21 May 2017 17:12:48(UTC)
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Hi Jean,

Thanks for the reply. I tried to open the UserUnit.sm file, but I needed a plugin installed to see it. I clicked to install the plugin, then the software crashed. I tried this several times. How do I find the plugin and install it before I open the file?

Dave

Offline Jean Giraud  
#4 Posted : 21 May 2017 18:20:13(UTC)
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Smath crashed, Oh !

More collabs will visit to help you rescue your Smath.

Here is the work sheet in compacted image.
Hope it open, no crash ?

Jean

UserUnit.bmp (980kb) downloaded 30 time(s).


Offline mkraska  
#5 Posted : 21 May 2017 22:33:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post

I cannot create this system of units by changing the constant.xml and units.xml sheets because the underlying structure is different. I have also created worksheets with unit definitions that work, but the software wants to produce the results in SI units, which is really messy. I need to have the results in the native units I have devised.


Maybe, it is as easy as typing the unit you want for the result in the square black placeholder?

2017-05-21 21_30_24-SMath Studio 0.98.6179 - [Section operation units.sm].png
Section operation units.sm (22kb) downloaded 10 time(s).
Martin Kraska

Pre-configured portable distribution of SMath Studio: https://smath.com/wiki/SMath_with_Plugins.ashx
Offline aetherwizard  
#6 Posted : 21 May 2017 22:55:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mkraska Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post

I cannot create this system of units by changing the constant.xml and units.xml sheets because the underlying structure is different. I have also created worksheets with unit definitions that work, but the software wants to produce the results in SI units, which is really messy. I need to have the results in the native units I have devised.


Maybe, it is as easy as typing the unit you want for the result in the square black placeholder?

2017-05-21 21_30_24-SMath Studio 0.98.6179 - [Section operation units.sm].png
Section operation units.sm (22kb) downloaded 10 time(s).


No, that does not help at all. I already have an extensive worksheet that lists all the units I'm working with. APM Constants and Units.sm (242kb) downloaded 18 time(s).

I know it is difficult for people to understand what a new system of units involving distributed charge means. This is why I am willing to do the programming myself.

My objective is to have a native units program where I can teach the value of this new units system to others. The program needs to be able to render the results in the new system of units automatically. If I can get access to the code, I can setup the dimensions according to the new units system, as well as the new units, and the output will be correct.

If you open the worksheet, you will see that SMath has a bug in it that does not render the units correctly. This worksheet was originally written in MathCAD 11 and worked well. For example, the following result is produced by SMath:

k.C=1*{'kg^2*'m^4}/{'s^6*'A^4}@Gforce*St

and the same result in MathCAD would be:

k.C=1*@Gforce*St.

None of this {'kg^2*'m^4}/{'s^6*'A^4} should be in the result. If you look down the sheet, this extra stuff appears a lot.
Offline Davide Carpi  
#7 Posted : 22 May 2017 00:18:48(UTC)
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Hello aetherwizard Offline Good

Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
My objective is to have a native units program where I can teach the value of this new units system to others. The program needs to be able to render the results in the new system of units automatically. If I can get access to the code, I can setup the dimensions according to the new units system, as well as the new units, and the output will be correct.


The ability to handle different units' systems is one of the main goals of SMath Studio as well (SS-1); the code thus is designed to be neutral, it simply loads units.xml and use its data to manage the units (any relation is defined in that file, there aren't hardcoded instruction to prefer meter over inches or 1/s over Hertz or whatever else). There are known issue mentioned by Martin (f.e. here) and probably there are more; I guess would be much more profitable for the whole community to try to develop a units.xml file with your units system and try to identify precisely the issues, what should be done but actually can't be done or seems impossible to do (instead of applying hardcoded exceptions for a specific case - this rarely ends up in good things).

BTW any comment here push a notification to the author Secret

Edited by user 22 May 2017 00:21:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline aetherwizard  
#8 Posted : 22 May 2017 01:01:38(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Davide Carpi Go to Quoted Post
Hello aetherwizard Offline Good

Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
My objective is to have a native units program where I can teach the value of this new units system to others. The program needs to be able to render the results in the new system of units automatically. If I can get access to the code, I can setup the dimensions according to the new units system, as well as the new units, and the output will be correct.


The ability to handle different units' systems is one of the main goals of SMath Studio as well (SS-1); the code thus is designed to be neutral, it simply loads units.xml and use its data to manage the units (any relation is defined in that file, there aren't hardcoded instruction to prefer meter over inches or 1/s over Hertz or whatever else).


Most people are not aware that cgs units naturally show charge to be a distributed quantity. One of the main reasons why the cgs was abandoned for the MKS system was because scientists insisted that charge should be a single dimension. They then tried to go back to the cgs system and define a dimension of charge as the square root of its natural expression.

The bottom line is that if charge is naturally distributed, then our SI and MKS systems of units are wrong, especially since five units are correctly expressed in terms of distributed charge (conductance, permittivity, permeability, capacitance, and inductance) and the rest (potential, resistance, magnetic flux, etc) are incorrectly expressed in terms of single dimension charge. This is why imaginary numbers are required when calculating impedance and other equations where one of the five distributed charge units are used alongside the single dimension charge units.

Also, according to the gas law, temperature should be a unit equal to velocity squared. The artificial and otherwise dimensionless Kelvin, Fahrenheit, and Celsius are arbitrary values thrown into a dimensional equation.

If you look through the sheet I posted, you will see units grids midway down. In mainstream physics, nobody has ever before attempted to organize units and dimensions. Of course, they couldn't, because they had the dimension of charge incorrectly notated in all but five of the units. By organizing the units I show more depth of understanding about their interrelationships. I also show several newly identified units, and also show many units that have not yet been identified. This is a very important aspect of physics that has not yet been thoroughly examined, and which can provide improved and extended calculations for physical systems.

I have been working over ten years trying to get something together so that I can teach this improved understanding of units to the world, and have not gotten anywhere. The guys at PTC (who own MathCAD) were no help at all, and neither was Mathematica. If I could just get access to the SMath code, I should be able to make some progress. I know other people don't yet see how valuable this new system of units is, and so they don't want to take time from other projects to work on it.
Offline aetherwizard  
#9 Posted : 22 May 2017 01:15:48(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Davide Carpi Go to Quoted Post
Hello aetherwizard Offline Good

The ability to handle different units' systems is one of the main goals of SMath Studio as well (SS-1); the code thus is designed to be neutral, it simply loads units.xml and use its data to manage the units (any relation is defined in that file, there aren't hardcoded instruction to prefer meter over inches or 1/s over Hertz or whatever else).


Maybe I am not understanding units.xml properly. What is the significance of the 3 digit IDs. Are they randomly chosen, or do the digits identify a units matrix of some sort? If I can understand the naming strategy I could probably take care of this myself.

The primary dimensions would need to be:

m.e = mass of electron
e^2 = electrostatic charge squared
e.emax^2 = electromagnetic charge squared
lambda.C = Compton wavelength
F.q = quantum frequency = c / lambda.C

The units are as defined in the sheet.

Offline Jean Giraud  
#10 Posted : 22 May 2017 03:12:46(UTC)
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My own units like this:

(me:=1)≡"mass of electron "
(e2:=1)≡"electrostatic charge squared"
(eemax2:=1)≡"electromagnetic charge squared"
(λC:=1)≡"Compton wavelength"
(Fq:=1)≡"quantum frequency"

Variable name can only be letter(s), some symbols, underscore
Variable names can't be mixed with arithmetic operators.
So, if you have a result about the mass of big electron, per say
mybigelectron=123456.789
in the right most place holder of mybigelectron=
paste me from the definitions upstream the document
to read => mybigelectron=123456.789me

Something like: 2 onions + 1 carrot= onion soup
1 onion + 2 carrots= carrot soup.
I have more recipes ! Cheers, Jean

... ≡ is the fat = [Ctrl+=]
Offline aetherwizard  
#11 Posted : 22 May 2017 04:30:31(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
My own units like this:

(me:=1)≡"mass of electron "
(e2:=1)≡"electrostatic charge squared"
(eemax2:=1)≡"electromagnetic charge squared"
(λC:=1)≡"Compton wavelength"
(Fq:=1)≡"quantum frequency"

Variable name can only be letter(s), some symbols, underscore
Variable names can't be mixed with arithmetic operators.

... ≡ is the fat = [Ctrl+=]


The e^2 and e.emax^2 dimensions have to be true squared dimensions. They can't just have the appearance of being squared. They would in fact be more like:

e * e≡"electrostatic charge squared"
e.emax * e.emax≡"electromagnetic charge squared"

Why cannot the primary dimensions have superscript and subscript representation just like the units can?
Offline Davide Carpi  
#12 Posted : 22 May 2017 12:58:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
Maybe I am not understanding units.xml properly. What is the significance of the 3 digit IDs. Are they randomly chosen, or do the digits identify a units matrix of some sort? If I can understand the naming strategy I could probably take care of this myself.


It's the position of the description in the language file (lang/text_###.lang); currently: line number-9. You can append the customized descriptions below line 679 (Loading plug-ins) but above current line 680 (//130); also, you have to update line 8 count (671 it's the number of strings between line 9 and line 680).
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Offline Jean Giraud  
#13 Posted : 22 May 2017 17:53:09(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
The e^2 and e.emax^2 dimensions have to be true squared dimensions. They can't just have the appearance of being squared. They would in fact be more like:

e * e≡"electrostatic charge squared"
e.emax * e.emax≡"electromagnetic charge squared"

Why cannot the primary dimensions have superscript and subscript representation just like the units can?


To me, superscript/subscript are Latex paper style, useless for productive maths,
and there is the Dirac "ket and bra" style that no maths can handle unless coded.
Subscripts are useless and confusing, unless the subscript is "descriptive text"
at the pre-design stage of developing an algorithm.

SI is generally not practicable for Engineering works. Interesting to see that SI
decided Pa was as big as NoteBank in term of visible "mWc".
The e2 [something] comes out from the maths/formulas. It does not have to process
anything past the result.

Can you now open *.sm attachment ? Otherwise collabs won't shovel clouds from same atmos.

Cheers Dave, Jean

Big Electron.sm (4kb) downloaded 9 time(s).

Inst_Colebrook Pipe Data.sm (60kb) downloaded 9 time(s).



Offline aetherwizard  
#14 Posted : 22 May 2017 19:27:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
The e^2 and e.emax^2 dimensions have to be true squared dimensions. They can't just have the appearance of being squared. They would in fact be more like:

e * e≡"electrostatic charge squared"
e.emax * e.emax≡"electromagnetic charge squared"

Why cannot the primary dimensions have superscript and subscript representation just like the units can?


To me, superscript/subscript are Latex paper style, useless for productive maths,


The purpose of using subscript and superscript is to provide a "file system" for identifying dimensions, units, etc. In my particular treatment of dimensions, it is sometimes useful to change the quantum of mass from the mass of the electron to the mass of the proton or mass of the neutron. Other quantum masses are useful, however, the mass of the electron is most often used especially when dealing with electromagnetism. To make these dimensions clearly stand out and yet remain similar, they are expressed with subscripts.

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
SI is generally not practicable for Engineering works.

I don't think it is useful for anything. Dry

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
The e2 [something] comes out from the maths/formulas. It does not have to process
anything past the result.

This is why I need to be the one to construct the constants and units templates. It is actually very important that the charge dimensions express as distributed quantities. This is a requirement imposed by nature. The structure of the mass dimension is linear and the structure of the charge dimension is distributed. It is the lack of understanding of the structural nature of charge that causes our present mainstream understanding of physics to seem weird and counter-intuitive. Charge never exists as a point, but is always distributed over a surface. The surface may be the surface of an electron, but it is still a surface. Just because the mathematicians make useful equations treating charge as a point does not mean charge is a point, which of course is impossible. A point is merely a position, and has no dimensions.

Originally Posted by: Jean Giraud Go to Quoted Post
Can you now open *.sm attachment ? Otherwise collabs won't shovel clouds from same atmos.

Yes, I was able to open the *.sm files with no problems.

Thanks,

Dave

Offline aetherwizard  
#15 Posted : 22 May 2017 19:32:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Davide Carpi Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
Maybe I am not understanding units.xml properly. What is the significance of the 3 digit IDs. Are they randomly chosen, or do the digits identify a units matrix of some sort? If I can understand the naming strategy I could probably take care of this myself.


It's the position of the description in the language file (lang/text_###.lang); currently: line number-9. You can append the customized descriptions below line 679 (Loading plug-ins) but above current line 680 (//130); also, you have to update line 8 count (671 it's the number of strings between line 9 and line 680).


Thanks, I will look at this in more detail, tonight. This looks like the missing piece of information I need to get started.
Offline Jean Giraud  
#16 Posted : 22 May 2017 21:53:42(UTC)
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Thanks Dave for explaining.

In the mean time you design the "Special Unit System",
you can publish your work for demo as attached.
Use the writer region close to the result.
Mathcad 11 was able to do it nice because the text region
accepted result as well as formulae.

Jean

Big Electron.sm (5kb) downloaded 15 time(s).
Offline Jean Giraud  
#17 Posted : 22 May 2017 23:30:15(UTC)
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... suite [revisit Big Electron]:

To complete/instruct your "Special Unit System" you need the
special descriptive region, Mathcad style. Assuming this
feature could be implemented, your projects will be self-tutored,
high pro style for publishing. If the "Smath Writer region" could
be pasted in the unit place holder of the result, would be great !

Jean

Big Electron.sm (23kb) downloaded 13 time(s).

Offline aetherwizard  
#18 Posted : 23 May 2017 04:01:23(UTC)
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It would have been helpful if someone had mentioned that I had to add my new units and dimensions to the bottom of the language file. I scrolled to the section where the units were and added alphabetically nearly 70 new units. Then I scrolled down afterward and saw there were several hundred lines of code that would be thrown off. That was two hours wasted.

It looks like I am being forced to produce very sloppy files due to a lack of planning. It would have been a lot smoother if there had been blocks assigned for specific types of language data. At the very least, the units, dimensions, and factors sections could have been in a separate language file.

Is there something else I need to know about these files before I try again? I think what I will do is start with a fresh copy of the language file and duplicate all the units and dimensions information toward the end of the file, and then recode the constants.xml and units.xml files to the new line numbers. This way I can have all the terms alphabetized and be able to find them easy, rather than have to bounce between searching the 600s and 1200s for the right terms.

Even though I am adding 70 new units to the units list, there are about 100 other units that have not yet been identified and named, and which will have to be added at a later time when someone figures out what they are. If these new units are also going to be alphabetized, then the whole set of files will have to be rewritten, again. It really would help if the units and dimensions portion of the language file could be separate, such as Text_Units_ENG.lang.

I am going to consider using generic terms for the units so that I can add all the units, including the unnamed units. Then later on the generic names can be changed to a more meaningful term that describes the unit.

Dave Thomson
Offline Davide Carpi  
#19 Posted : 23 May 2017 11:10:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
Is there something else I need to know about these files before I try again? I think what I will do is start with a fresh copy of the language file and duplicate all the units and dimensions information toward the end of the file, and then recode the constants.xml and units.xml files to the new line numbers. This way I can have all the terms alphabetized and be able to find them easy, rather than have to bounce between searching the 600s and 1200s for the right terms.


I see there is a protection to avoid file corruption in language files, probably to prevent code injections or something similar (in short, you cannot edit them directly); my suggestion for now is to try produce your own units.xml borrowing the ids of units you don't care in your system (this will produce wrong descriptions but shouldn't be a stopper for calculations)
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Offline Jean Giraud  
#20 Posted : 23 May 2017 14:03:52(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aetherwizard Go to Quoted Post
It really would help if the units and dimensions portion of the language file could be separate, such as Text_Units_ENG.lang.


That's what I suggested "paste in the rightmost place holder"
paste the unit as written in "Writer region" ...+++ more symbols.

Jean

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